new ideas for tourney

[yobnoog]

this is the rtt paint for 5th ed perhaps we could use it to help determine winners

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[galadren]

I disagree. Maybe a separate little contest for painting for a door prize or something, but I think the tournament itself should be determined by game play alone.

Just my two coppers.

[yobnoog]

Posted by galadren on Today at 11:49am
I disagree. Maybe a separate little contest for painting for a door prize or something, but I think the tournament itself should be determined by game play alone.

Just my two coppers

have you ever played in a major tournament? they all use battle points comp points sportsmanship points painting points to determine the overall winner with seperate catogories for each other class. talk to anyone who has played in a rtt style tournament

[galadren]

Nope, never have. And this isn't a major tournament. It's a small, local tournament for fun and prizes. This isn't about cutting each other's throats and getting an edge at all costs. Not to mention in a small player pool like this you'd consistantly get certain players outscoring others in this area. Also, how do you verify that people even actually painted their own models? They couldn't even verify it for the Golden Demon until after the prize had been awarded and they found out someone else did the painting.

It's just another can of worms that doesn't need to be opened.

[yobnoog]

While you are correct this is a small tournament it is the structure for all gw tourneys that are rtt format the way they are set up is:
best overall =35 - 40 % prize given
best general 10-15% prize given
best painted 10-15% prize given
best sportsman =35 - 40 % prize given

and its easy to determine is someone painted their army you ask them if you catch them lieing you punish them some way.
go to the gw web site and search rogue trader tournament format read what it says. its pretty good material or look at it here.
either way it makes for more interesting tournaments when you add in things like comp painting and sportsman ship.

sides try it once its a lot of fun it also spreads out the prizes more and in running them in this format gw will give stores prize support.
Not too mention I am also trying to organize a indy gt for next summer for 40k and fantasy i have almost everything an d ddoen to get ready for it however i need a store to let me run rtt style tournaments to show that i can do it in order to be approved.

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[lucaslad]

I'll say this, any kind of comp at this point is definately a "Can-of-worms" that do not need to be opened. At some point in the future with the increased turnout at the 40k tournament it may be worth looking into, however just to give you perspective this is the shortlist of things Beau and I have to get resolved:

-New Missions
-New Scoring System
-New Regulations for Painted/Unpainted
-Constant Review of Models Released by GW vs. Indy retailers for unreleased models with rules.
-Deployment Time Frame

And to be honest we had some issues of people starting turns without enough time for their opponent to get a turn in, so we obviously have some work to do on the basics.

[Admin]

A few things I noticed during the last tournament.

- There were a couple of people playing that treated a few of the older players very horribly, and demonstrated very poor sportsmanship.

- Last I knew of the phrase from GW is "The edge of the table is the edge of the world" and saw things hanging off various tables.

- Comp really does need to be factored into a tournament, as it everyone more fair matchups, rather than cheesed out list playing against someone who builds a well balanced fun to play army. That kind of takes the fun out of the tournament, and is the reason that some players are no longer partaking of the tournament scene.

- I believe the win or loss is a better way than dragging points out and doing "Win Loss Draw" style. Honestly, you either complete the mission or you don't, I seriously think that the manner in which Warmachine tournaments are done should be seriously considered.

- The unreleased GW model issue is simple. Their statement previously was if you made an acceptible model for something that wasn't released, it was fine, and if one comes out in the future, you can switch them, but as long as the model representing it is made from at least 50 percent GW components, it is legal. Kind of like building a plastic version of Lukas "The Trickster" from the Wolf plastic box. Yes I am aware I am referencing two items that came out at the same time, but the point is still made about making models to represent others.

[yobnoog]

I support your idea for painting and hey if you notice I supplied you with a very fair and objective painting score system made by GW. Now whats this about models being converted for models that are/are not made. One of my favorite thigs is to convert models to give my army a unique feeling to it. Any and all conversions are usually pretty straight foreward. Sides when it comes to character models most people do not know what one the character is anyhoots. So if you make a lucas the trickster from spare parts and it fits the profile then go for it. GW pushes for people to do conversions keeping in mind. I also noticed the poor sportsman ship as well and I do believe a sportsmanship score affecting you overall performance would be good, however it needs to be oversited so when a person gets beaten they cant hurt their opponent by giving them a zero or something. In defense of the situation if you are refering to what I am refering too said recepiant has used invalid lists in the past, demonstrated zero understanding of their codex rules as evidenced by invalid lists and the dragging on of the game. I do have a suggestion for missions though perhaps locating the ard boys missions and use them since they are readily available and clearly written. As far as deployment time goes just increase the overall time of the game turn say 2h15m and thats that. give fifteen min warning about turn. Pehraps have someone run/organize the tourn who is not playing in it either.
If you would like me to put my money where my mouth is I will.

[yobnoog]

Oh yeah I forgot to mention if a store runs RTT format tourney's GW will give them prize support as long as someone calls in the info.

[yobnoog]

I just found this list of Tournament scoring guidelines that I used to use a fewyears ago when I ran tourney's I also collect them from friends so I have plenty to choose from as I find them I will post them.

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[lucaslad]

We are taking this all in to consideration. As I see it at this point the scoring system is not fair, because I can be honest there is no reason I should have place second after tieing a game and then basically losing a game.

We will be ironing out details in the coming weeks. I had some inclination that a bit of unsportsman like conduct was going on, it will be addressed.

thank you for your input.

[Admin]

- The 'Ard Boyz 2009 scenarios were used extensively a while ago. There was a huge complaint that was had, that the same scenarios were used repetitvely (I am assuming you are speaking of the new ones when they publish, not last years however) and that nobody really liked them (also a lot of people didn't want to play in the tournamnt any longer, as they were the same scenarios). We need to have a large library so to speak of scenarios so that we don't have the same ones used over and over again. If you want to play a "Practice tournament game" just play a game, honestly, and if you're going to use a tournament list against an opponent, man up and tell them, and if they ask if it's a tournament list don't lie to them just to get a "practice game" in. If your opponent tells you they are playing a just for fun list and you bring a tournament list against them, and tell them it's a for fun list, then grind them to paste, thats rather uncalled for. That just drives more people away from the tournaments and away from 40k entirely.
The fact that people insist on using the same repetitive scenarios leads to people building lists designed to win the specific scenarios, not just building a list to play in the tournament.

- I don't believe the tournament organizer(s) should be placing in their tournaments, period. I honestly think it looks really inappropriate to have the tournament organizer place, let alone win the tournament.
Chris, the individual from New Orleans that runs the Fantasy tournaments is a firm believer in this, commenting along the lines of other tournament organizers, that he's there for the fun of it, and if he wins, cool, but he's not going to accept the prize, because he's running it. I also know when Terry ran it, he didn't allow himself to place, regardless of how well he did. He was there to make sure the tourney went smoothly, and everyone had fun, and didn't find it in good taste when he read off the winners for his name to be listed. Just doesn't seem right in my opinion. When Terry ran it, he was just as quick to reprimand any of his aquaintences as any others, as his comment was simply, you should have known better.

- My other concern is this "models" bit. I don't think you should be allowed to have much more than a special character or unique model or two in an army that isn't a GW or Forgeworld model. I don't want us to have an influx of "hot glue wolves" and models which are half the size of what they are representing. This isn't fair to anyone that is playing in the tournament, at all. I have heard of people wanting to use reaper models to represent large groups for their armies, as they are less expensive, and they need a lot of them.. But when you look at the model they want to use, and the model it is representing, it's not fair at all, especially if it's something that doesn't shoot, so it doesn't need line of sight. With 5th edition's line of sight rules, this seems like you are using an unfair tactic. C'mon it's a friendly tournament, not a GT.

- Painting really should be factored in as well. It's great to see painted forces on the table, and it really does seem to make people play a better game, psychologically speaking. Also, it does justify the cost increase of the tournament, especially if you do a small award for best painted. The painting .pdf file at the top of the post does do a good job at covering the basics, the only fault I see is that unless you have dealt with every army and have an excellent knowledge of bitz and where they come from, the conversion part isn't too fair. Also unless you are just running the tournament and not playing in it, it would probably be considered too time consuming. Also, if you are the TO and using this, your army shouldn't be elligible if you are doing the judging.


A suggestion for painting

- Each person takes one of their models, the one they feel is the best example of their army or the one they want to submit, write your name on an index card with something that won't bleed through, and write a number on the other side (that you are given of course).

- Set each of these models on their cards on an unused table (or reserve it for this if need be) and display all of these. During lunch ask everyone to take a look and vote for what model number they think is the best (also as it's been done with warmachine, asking others that are in the store to vote too, so it's just not everyone voting for their own model). Also, you are not permitted to hang about the table and point out things on your model or others to sway anyone's opinions, and in doing so removes your model from the competition, as that's not really fair to anyone.

- Talk to Ashley and see if she would keep track of it (so it's completely impartial with the collection) and whoever wins, wins best painted model representing the army , which can be announced at the end of the game. Or effectively, you can print out the .pdf sheet, which is a good idea, and hand it out at the beginning with instructions that during the lunch break, walk through the table and fill it out (it'd only take a few minutes, so it's not like you're asking someone to take half their break to do it), leaving it with Ashley (if she wouldn't mind adding it up). This gives more than a yes/no vote and gives better competition, but it's ultimately up to whomever ends up running the tournaments and how much work they want to put into it for everyone's enjoyment.


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@ yobnoog

- The only prize support GW does any more is for the 'Ard Boyz, and their tournament circuit. Their "official" prize support ended about 5 years ago.

- For the most part, anyone who previously ran a tournament and played in it had no problems doing so. If they want to play for the fun of it while keeping an eye on it, so be it, they just shouldn't place, as that does look a bit odd.
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I am not sure whether or not the invalid list issue has been addressed, and there's always someone who does honestly misnderstand a rule or two, usually not blatantly cheating, but I am speaking of the horrible attitude several different people had at the last tournament. I didn't really see a lack of understanding a codex, per say, as much as I saw a rotten attitude towards their opponents. This is a friendy tournament, after all. This is also part of the reason the 8-10 people that used to show up for the tournaments don't do so any longer. Why play in a game with people like that, when you can catch a friendly game with others?

[yobnoog]

I am just sayin that a tournament in the rtt style sreads around the prizes and allows for an overall winner not just someone who comes in and crushs their opponents. I do agree with using non gw models 100%. Perhaps instead of just one model use a squad to give a better representation of the army. I was refering to all of the ard boys missions not just the 09 ones. When I used the painting score guidelines I would ask the person whose army it was if they had any conversions if i did not recogonize them and to show me in the codex what models gw made and their creation. after a few times doing this with the persons army you can almost just gopy their previous score sheet unless they have added anything. Can you give me an example of what you saw last weekend specifically.
@red Scorpion girl comp is not as bad a can of worms as you think trust me it helps.
lucaslad I do agree with what you are saying about your placing in the current system however if comp painting and sportsmanship were used i would say hey u earned it claim your prize.
My offer still stands to run a tournament if you all do not like the way I did it I will happily bow out and continue to support changes to the existing format. A chance is all that I ask

[Admin]

@ yobnoog If you would kindly scroll up and reference previous messages you will note I am heavily FOR using comp. lucaslad is actually the one who made the "can of worms" reference, and directly after his message I disagreed with him stating it really DOES need to be factored in.

Also, in reference to the non GW models, I hold my stance on the fact that you should have NO more than 1-2 in your army. A lot of people have invested a lot of money to get in and stay in this hobby, taking the time to get the models for their army instead of making hot glue ones, or just using something that "kinda fits" from another company. A character or two is understandable, but not more than like 10% at most. Also, if you want to see a RTT, they have similar rulings to the 'Ard Boyz, that you can't use non-GW models, period. They don't seem to have a problem with this, and it's not like they're asking for much. It's kind of like telling somebody that a photocopy codex is perfectly acceptable, when in reality, it's not an official codex.

[The Warboss]

this all needs to be said here as well:

As far as I am concerned the INAT is an abomination that needs to be stopped. As you read through it, the INAT contradicts itself a few times and seems to be written by people that truly don't care what they are writing just that they are ending an argument.


The wargear book is no longer valid.... period. All armies affected must simply revert back to their respective codex.

using your opponents dice is stupid... if you don't trust them ask a TO to check them... or just ask them not to use them. ( I will say most superstitious gamers will crack someone over the head for jinxing their dice)

As far as INAT being used for ard boyz.... it was only used in chicago and after personally playing in the location several times I know why.... the staff is incompetent and non-confrontational so rather than upset someone during a very heated tourney they bowed out to their local gaming club.... who by the way runs the tourneys in the chicago bunker (yes the EMPLOYEES don't even run the 40k tourneys there).

As far as 6+ army lists go ..... I don't care what my opponent used yesterday... if I want to know if it is a legal list either I look for the TO's mark on the roster or I will ask to see the list.